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Author Topic: Pinion angle / shim degree help  (Read 395 times)

1badmotorfinger

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Pinion angle / shim degree help
« on: November 24, 2018, 02:21:24 PM »

I have an 88 that's had a leaf added to the stock front & rear springs but also has 2" lift shackles all around. I've not driven it in years and am trying to get it back on the road soon. Eventually I'd like to go with a ZOR escort YJ kit but until then I've to get a motor, transmission, TC and other things so suspension will come later. Until then though and in keeping the suspension setup it currently has, I'm trying to figure out if I need to get some leaf spring shims or not and if so, what degree to get. I've been reading threads, articles and even watching videos but am having a hard time figuring this out. I've attached a picture for reference. From measuring, the pinion and drive shaft are at almost the exact same angle however the angle of the transfer case output flange is obviously at a much different angle.
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »

you want the output of the T-case to be parallel to the input of the Diff at ride height. By the looks of the pic, might want the shim on the back side of the axle. maybe 5 degree's but it's hard to tell with the angle on the pic.
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2018, 09:48:05 PM »

There is nothing wrong with that set up. Rear axles do not steer so they can be tilted up slightly like that was when the tall shackles were installed. You may have a steering issue up front. The drive shaft should run straight into the front differential it should break up into to it. Steering geometry on a knuckle axle is very unforgiving when off more than a couple of degrees
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1badmotorfinger

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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2018, 11:17:47 AM »

I'll take a look at the front this evening to get a better idea if the drive-shaft runs straight or if it's angled at all. If I find it's at an angle and decide to go with shims, is it best to shim both front and back instead of just front?
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 09:50:47 PM »


Listen up: New to Samurai quirks

The shims we are all talking about are wedge shaped and go across the whole perch. The thicker part tilts the differential angle up or down depending on which direction the wedge ends up. Typically longer shackles tilt the dif up. Weíre staying for stock angles on the steering.  so you will have the thick part on the back of the perch. To tilt dif flange angle down. Making the steering angle correct.
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1badmotorfinger

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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 05:53:28 AM »

Thanks MY, I truly appreciate your response and the time you take to help folks like me who don't have the years of experience you do! Ran out of time and didn't get a chance to check the front dif and drive-shaft angle yesterday after work so will try to today but your explanation helps tremendously!
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1badmotorfinger

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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 03:39:38 PM »

In front, I took the angle from the kingpin mount bolts and it's 1 degree of positive caster. Below, as taken from the FSM (pg 18-4) throws me a bit though as I'm not sure which one applies to how I measured the angle using the kingpin bolts. Based on this Acksfaq article (http://www.acksfaq.com/HTML/caster.htm) though it seems like the "Caster 3.5 degrees plus or minus 1 degree" is what I've measured and as such, a 2 degree shim would be in order.
Thanks all for any input you might have and I certainly don't want to  dead horse

FSM pg 18-4
Kingpin inclination 9 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees
Caster 3.5 degrees plus or minus 1 degree
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 10:30:22 PM »

Yep when you measure off knuckle cap bolts and are correct there will be two corresponding measurements at the differential
On the flange 10 degrees
On the bottom flat 12 degrees
This occurs when the ball races are 3.5 degrees

The correct factory steering angle for caster
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2019, 01:59:19 PM »

There is nothing wrong with that set up. Rear axles do not steer so they can be tilted up slightly like that was when the tall shackles were installed. You may have a steering issue up front. The drive shaft should run straight into the front differential it should break up into to it. Steering geometry on a knuckle axle is very unforgiving when off more than a couple of degrees
[/quote

My,
 Is the stock caster angle of 3.5 degrees the desired angle, even with power steering and for optimum road handling and steering characteristics?
 I thot that the "quick" 3.5 degree oem caster was engineered in for the ease of using manual steering, and that 5-7 degree caster is better suited to power steering?
 Thots?
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2019, 09:23:10 PM »

Common sense dictates that steering angles have nothing to do with how the knuckles turn. They pivot on an angle that allows for the designed steering for a ball and knuckle axle. If you go into adjusting your camber on this type of axle and you donít understand why the tire is going to turn behind the trunnion line. Then most likely death wobble will be introduced into the suspension and you will have to redo or do extras to correct.
We do a lot of ball rotation to get that dif up higher but maintain great King and Queen trunnion pin placement
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Re: Pinion angle / shim degree help
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2019, 01:01:36 PM »

Common sense dictates that steering angles have nothing to do with how the knuckles turn. They pivot on an angle that allows for the designed steering for a ball and knuckle axle. If you go into adjusting your camber on this type of axle and you donít understand why the tire is going to turn behind the trunnion line. Then most likely death wobble will be introduced into the suspension and you will have to redo or do extras to correct.
We do a lot of ball rotation to get that dif up higher but maintain great King and Queen trunnion pin placement

Huh? Not following you My...........

 I was asking your opinion on zuk "caster" angle.

 I know oem zuk caster angle is 3.5 degrees. This angle was engineered with manual steering in mind by the zuk engineers.

 My question is.......would steering and handling actually improve with "more" caster, like say 5-7 degrees? YES, steering effort will be greater with more caster, but with power steering installed, this extra effort needed really doesn't matter. If the caster angle were more than the stock 3.5 degrees, then, in theory the steering would not feel a quick as stock, and should actually return to a straight line coming out of a turn more positively. So a slower feel, but less sketchy feeling.
 
 In other words.....what is the optimal caster angle for a zuk, with 31" tires, and with power steering [ no change to oem camber angle and keeping the 1/8th toe-in spec]?.....for road handling that is.
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